DUNGEON RULES: PLEASE READ AND OFFER FEEDBACK

[Oda Nobunaga]

So, it's come to my attention that stuff can get really out of hand in dungeons as far as growth of a character. Because of this, I'd like to impose limits on who can do what dungeon, and what you can gain from it. Now, this won't affect anyone who's already completed a dungeon, but this will apply to current and future dungeons.

1) Post count restrictions for dungeons depending on rank
2) Restricting item gains from monsters to one item per monster. So no weapon and armor, now it's weapon or armor.
3) Running dungeons twice: Currently it's looking like this; total rewards divided by number of runs (so like the Shinrai guys got 31 the first time, if they did it again they'd get 31/2 rounded down), and no bonuses for doing multiple paths.

If you have other concerns, raise them here.

[Shinrai Sagi]

I wholeheartedly agree with some sort of nerfing system being implemented. For being a starter, I feel like the jumps Sakkaku and I made a huge statistical jump, despite how well we did.

Maybe items that require certain stats to wield themselves? That could be reasonable, and would definitely lower my ridiculous stats considering my base stats are all so low.

[Morei Haji]

Post count restrictions for dungeons are probably a must. As well as the Exp/Yen being divided for later runs. Item gains I'm fine with as well.

I wish we could do something about slow moving dungeons though, like if someone never posts to it but posts elsewhere. Can't really do the same thing that we do in the major events, I guess.

If anything, medium dungeons and up will definitely have stat requirements to wield items.

[Miyamoto Kenji]

If imposing limitations makes things more fair, I'm good with that. I'd rather like to keep the things I've currently collected in my dungeon run, though, if that's alright. Whether in-progress runs have these new limitations imposed from next post on is up to staff, and I'll respect their judgement, but... >_> I do kind of really want my current stuff.

[Shinrai Sakkaku]

Chest items are not affected by these new rules. We were allowed to keep all of our chests, as finding them was fair game. The limitations apply to the enemies slain that drop loot, as you were able to loot a weapon AND an armor piece. As it stands, we had to give up one or the other per enemy, so you may have to do the same.

[Ichimura Ryunosuke]

Quite fine with that, but one way or another I had upgraded my gear. But being fair, I'll be ready to part with my mask.

[Oda Nobunaga]

Ryunosuke, you won't be losing anything.

Now, this won't affect anyone who's already completed a dungeon, but this will apply to current and future dungeons.

[Zhuo Jina]

It seems like it is pretty out of hand.

As for the timing, I think there should be an allotted wait time for posts. It can be ridiculous sometimes how long people wait to post in a dungeon thread.

As for rewards, I think players are given wayy to much good stuff too early. I think back to my days playing WoW and I remember the first dungeon. It was hard as hell if you were level 20 but you were given items to match your level.

[Tokugawa Ieyasu]

Alright here are my view on the issue. As first thing i noticed this morning when coming on was how much the dungeon was giving out again.

1 - Yes a post count limit before starting a dungeon should be put in. However not such how big, it should be at a rank point but the one i would consider 150 is where you get musou as  well, and that to me seems like too much power boost for one rank. 

2 - Yes one drop per monster that does drop is a good start however. Number of people in a thread should also change what the people face. 1 person who is good/lucky enough to get gold, if they fight say 10 of the knights would get 10 items. More creature that don't drop items but are still a challenge would mean less items drops aswell for those in position to get everything. 

3 - Running a dungeon again however I would say NO. Running the same dungeon again shouldn't be allowed, because even at diminishing returns it still for one thread will boost the power of a character faster then anything else bar maybe events for like the first 4 times they run it. They should have to wait for the next dungeon (And it higher post count needed) in order to force people to space out the dungeon threads they do. 

Now some of my own points that could be done. 

1 - Set enemy but set rewards. Set a maximum of Item dropping mobs that a single player in the thread can loot. Have some vanish to quickly or not have items. However while this would be a max, it isn't the minum this is the best among of items a person can get. Have lower numbers for lower ranks. So until the rank up in a path they only fight a certain amount of mobs with drops. 

2 - Change the items, rather then mess with the mob drops rate, mess with the mob drops. Lower the stats they give but allow people to gain multiply. In some cases this means they wouldn't be able to use multiply items at once. 

3 - Hard limit on the Add-On items drops. Notice the guy given away like 15 of them because using them would make them insane.

4 - Now this has been said, but stat requirement for weapons are a good way to go. Might mean a person has lots of items but may not be able to use them all. 

[Shinrai Sagi]

I agree with everything mentioned above, but here's the only reason I think multiple runs should be A-Okay for Numa:

The first few runners were basically guinea pigs, I'm guessing. I looked through old threads, and Takehiro is a damn beast, but his group got silver rankings and hammered through walls basically the entire time. I go in with Sagi and Sakkaku, walk out full-platinum. Not saying we didn't earn it, though; I'm saying the first few were under-prepared.

That's just me though.

Also, I did kill a HELL of a lot of Rogues/Stalkers and they dropped purely add-ons. Maybe adding to their possible drops?

Another suggestion of mine was actually a drop-rate system, but I don't know if that was mentioned yet or not. I've seen the dice plug-in go from 1-100 on some boards, and that could be used to determine what you get from enemies, maybe?

[Chimosa Hake]

Obviously you have to either nerf every item in the game or you should increase the difficulty of Numa castle. If two players who just created their characters can run platinum in their first try, even if they are alts from veteran players, than something is very wrong.

Perhaps you should look into the stats of the monsters. The strongest bronze rank monster should have equal stats to the weakest silver rank monster, etc, etc. This should make platinum rank the challenge it should be.

And limit the drops per section of the dungeon to one item per person, so one person could get, at maximum, three items from the entire dungeon run. Give each member of the team a chance to take 1 item from the end boss treasure or something, or from the Daimyo chest or as a gift from the Daimyo for completing the dungeon.

And, possibly, put a (magical) barrier on dungeons that prevent people from going back in right after they come out. What if you limit the amount of dungeon runs per month, like SPQs? Or allow people only to go in dungeons which they have not completed yet? So, the Shinrai would now be locked out of Numa castle forever since they completed the highest rank possible.

What is also possible, although this isn't related to the dungeon directly, is to limit or forbid entirely the buying of items for or sending of money to characters you don't know IC. I mean, from an IC immersion point of view, one of the Shinrai brothers just got an exploding chain-knife in the mail from someone who he has never seen or even heard of before. I know there are arabian princes out there who do that but in game you should prevent these kinds of things.

[Fujishima Shigenobu]

As much as I agree with the IC immersion point you make, Hake, it's an artificial barrier at best, given that there is literally zero things preventing said person from introducing his characters in a throw-away thread.

Char1: Hey, who are you?
Char2: Char2. Nice to meet you. Who are you?
Char1: Char1. Say, you're a pretty handsome fellow.
Char2: Why thank you, so are you.
Char1: I know! I feel some uncontrollable urge to share all of these super powerful weapons with you!
Char2: Gee, thanks!

And done, requirement circumvented.

I would love to see a limit on dungeon runs (to, say, 1 successful run per dungeon path, regardless of how well you actually do).

[Uesugi Kenshin]

We were against second dungeon runs initially, but the first group to go into it was essentially a test run and they got much less than later groups despite putting in more effort. The only reason they're even strong is because of their post count, later trials, etc, while characters of later dungeon runs are at their level without having all of that.

Rest assured, the Medium dungeon will be MUCH harder than Numa. But we're still trying to work the kinks out for the Easy dungeon.

The Shinrai did so well because they knew what they were walking into from the start. While the first group, we had no idea what to expect, as well as it was Brandon's first attempt at GMing such a thing.

Rewards will be substantially nerfed for later runs, to eventually not providing any EXP whatsoever.

Medium dungeon will likely require a post count of around 300 to even enter it. Enemies will probably have stats of 60 minimum. Expect enemies to have Musous. Enemy count will be doubled. We'll probably implement nerfs on item rewards at that point too.

The IC immersion means nothing, because as Shigenobu stated, it's easy to just make a throwaway thread for that purpose.

As for triple platinuming it... the Shinrai did earn it. Not a single bad move on their part, and they were well prepared. Not even us staff expected them to grow that powerful though. And they did give up about 20 items a piece for the final rewards. Takehiro had explosives too but we still silver ranked everything.

We'll probably increase the difficulty of the Easy dungeon too though. Right now, I'm okay with the Shinrai being strong if only because they're pretty much the only villain types on the board. (and they're not exactly just beating everyone up in open threads) And they are okay with being nerfed if it's a necessity, as can be seen by Sagi giving away a lot of his items. But no one else even made it close to the boss in the middle chamber. That was where the bulk of the rewards came from.

I'm not up for limiting the number of items to like three per dungeon though. The maze is filled with plenty of items, if one is willing to take the time to find them. It kills any desire to explore other paths there. The traps doesn't even give an item. The middle chamber is a ton of items due to monster kills. We could probably cut down the amount of items they drop there, but the boss will always give much better loot because... well, he's the boss.

But all in all, we don't want to take away all of the Shinrais items because they were the first to ever pull a triple platinum and they earned their loot and we already stole about 30k worth of Yen from them due to how many items they gave up. It's a heavy hit despite everything.

[Oshiro Daichi]

I think people are getting too powerful off of items alone. I mean you take a person who has relatively low stats in every category, but somehow they're being augmented to 3, 4, 5, or even 6 times the base value. Why even bother implementing stat caps at low levels when they can easily be surpassed?

[Oda Nobunaga]

Stat caps will not be touched. This is not a stat cap discussion.

Changes that will be made so far:

1) Numa Castle requires a minimum of 50 posts to enter. Any dungeons with players under 50 posts will be locked until they all reach 50 posts.
2) Parties will be required for all dungeons. 2-4, a minimum and a maximum.
3) Stats on items will be nerfed. +6s will probably change to +5s or +4s.
4) Powers will be stripped on a lot of items. A lot of powers on these items are really OP, and I failed to consider how they'd make characters grow in power so quickly. This was my fault.
5) Loot in dungeons will be based on the amount of players. There will no longer be a set 16 chests in the maze, for example. We're looking at 3-4 chests per person tops.
6) Lootable enemies will decrease in number.
7) Add-ons are likely to be abolished from the dungeon, aside from the one from Triple-Platinum (Mark of Numa).
8) As it stands, I don't entirely support double-dungeon runs. I'll have to say NO but if anyone wants to combat that they're welcome to. I'll listen to any and all points.
9) Destroyed loot will not be lootable. I.E., melting/shattering the knight's armor means you can't take it.
10) Items will gain stat requirements to wield.
11) If I can find the 1-100 dice plug-in, we're looking at drop-rates for possible rewards.

This is all I have right now, off the top of my head.

[Tokugawa Ieyasu]

1)Stop people just jumping straight into one, sounds good. 
2) I like this, 1 person alone really should win anyway, and 5 man teams would have to much assistance even if things were harder.
3) I would say +4, and retroactively, if it effects one it should effect all.  
4) I'm fine with just removing those on my item, would be to awkward to try and apply power removal to a already fused item.  
5) Yes this is needed, as the maze could depending on rolls give the world to one person in a team otherwise and nothing to another. 
6) Pretty self explanatory
7) Will this mean those you have them just remove the add on from the items they have them. 
8) I'm still of the No on this as well. 
9) Cool, harder to keep track of for the GM but it worth the extra work in order to keep drops balanced. 
10) Nice I think this should actually be more common in general, make people have to work toward using the rewards. 
11) Luck based drops can be seriously unpredictable, just keep this in mind. It could lead to underpowered or overpowered rewarded runs still.

[Date Masamune]

Personally I think that multiple runs should be allowed. I'm a fan of the Total Stat divided by number of runs idea.

There were people who just couldn't explore the entire dungeon in their first run. Whether it's because they got some really unlucky rolls and took too much damage, or because their team mates didn't want to continue going through the dungeon. I just don't think it's fair that they can't go back and give it a second shot especially because sometimes no matter how smart of a move you make, if you get a 1 dice roll, your entire post can be negated.

Some other ideas to make it a bit more fair would be nerfing the items gained as well. Treasure chests give out less money. No specialized weapon drops and so on.

[Shinrai Sagi]

After:
Str: 5(30)
Dex: 10(23)
Con: 5(18)
Wis: 16(48)
Spr: 15(70)

Before:
Str: 5(50)
Dex: 10(95)
Con: 5(46)
Wis: 16(84)
Spr: 15(86)

I took out add-ons and stuff from my personal stats. They'll be fixed to not be quite as OP, though they're still up there. Total losses were 172 stat points.

EDIT: Just realized this didn't count treasures I earned in the maze.

[Oda Nobunaga]

Current equipment will not be nerfed. Loot will just be reduced, for fairness' sake. Old members can rejoice as they won't be making heavy changes, if any at all.

[Shinrai Sakkaku]

My new stats following the nerfs made on us.

[ STR 10 (47) | DEX 10 (86) | CON 10 (30) | WIS 11 (74) | SPR 10 (45) ]

I don't recall where I started exactly, but I did have 135 DEX. So in that alone, I took about a 50 stat point hit. My other stats have dropped considerably as well.

I have my treasures factored in unlike Sagi, however. Hopefully this appeases people.

EDIT: I also took away a lot of the powers I had, on top of the stat losses.